Super Smash Brothers Thread: 64, Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 (Casual and Competitive Discussion)

Fuck, I hate how bad I am at this game. Everyone keeps telling me I have good tech (it's only good when I don't flub it which is a very high % of the time also DUH I CAN DUMB DIDDLY MULTISHINE BUT WHEN IS THAT USEFUL) and that I can combo pretty well (No I fucking don't, I drop free chaingrabs and STUPID easy followups) but I drop mad edgeguards and just fall for the DUMBEST things like aerialing high on shield and backthrow [insert gimp here].

 

It's fucking frustrating, ESPECIALLY when I know it's coming but do the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING EVERY TIME. I know what's coming, I know what to do to avoid it, but I don't. I want to punch myself in my fucking stupid face and chop off my hands and eyes every time this type of shit happens because I cannot believe how stupid and unwilling to learn I am. I literally yell at myself to fucking shinegrab when I see a shield because it works in 80% of situations but I don't. I yell at myself to fucking aerial past shield and I don't.  I yell at myself to not jump or side b near ledge but I just keep doing it. Is that the definition of insanity? Godddddd

I can give credit where it's due, but when I see it coming from a mile away and fall for it anyways, I just know I didn't deserve the stock. I just know when my Fox playing opponent spawns and spams lasers during invincibility that I can just lightshield, but I don't.  I know that when I dash dance for a grab I should wavedash down to bait a spotdodge, but I don't. I know that I shouldn't roll to center stage when I'm getting tech chased, but HURR DURR I do it. I keep losing to new players that aren't even trying and I've been playing for a year and I've gotten nowhere. I fucking hate, hate, hate how stupid I am.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you bud. It's been 3 years and I've figured my character out, but I still go 0-2 at every tournament. Like every other fighting game, low to high level Melee is 99.9% decision making. No matter how hard you practice tech skill, combos, tech chasing, etc. you'll never be able to get the proper mindset until you sit down with a human opponent with equal skill for numerous hours. Practicing to adapt is practicing to win. It's really redundant to say so because I'm struggling as hard as you are and I'm sure you know, but the key to winning in this game is thinking about every single action and it can be difficult when you lose so much.

I've pretty much dropped melee until I can settle things down in my personal life, but every now and then I do play and try to make it fun instead of frustrating. We all know it's a true grind to get good in this thing and if you aren't dedicating hours of game theory by yourself or in friendlies with practice partners then you'll end up no where. It is good to know that you aren't oblivious of your own problems. I've been to so many locals with PR players bitching and moaning to a higher ranked player about their character during a match and I just can't stop thinking to myself "He's better than me?" Because seeing him blame his opponent and not himself for why the match went the way it did makes me feel like the skill gap isn't that big if that's what his view of losing is like.

Personally, I have problems with tourney nerves, auto piloting, and burnout. Yet, I know most of it can be fixed with actual effort and cognitive thinking. Using a tourney as a building experience is much more productive than turning it into a frustrating rant as to why you lost. It must be hard being in a strong region, but take advantage of the people and tools you have to get better. It's not an impossibility at all. A falco main in my state rose to the top of the PR in only 4 months. All he did was put in serious effort to get better:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ebkwv/getting_better_at_smash/

I know I'm not the best person to be telling you all this since I'm still trash myself, but I can see how good players become great. I wish I had the balls to do it, but as of last week my local died. So driving an hour for a tournament and back doesn't seem worth my time and money.

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/4arw1f/20xx_hack_pack_405_update_new_and_improved_cpu_ai/

new 20xx pack has crazy tech monster CPUs. It's actually possible to train against them but ofc they don't have mindgames/can't edgeguard most of the time/don't have perfect ledgestalls (the side b stall they do is dumb)

also anyone watch the Five Gods sets today?

So I've never played Smash but I got a PC adapter for my old Gamecube controller. What do I have to do to play online? Which game? Hahah. Only got experience of Metroid Prime on Dolphin so far.
Go on Youtube and look up tutorials on how to use NetPlay. Melee is the game you prolly wanna get.

Go on Youtube and look up tutorials on how to use NetPlay. Melee is the game you prolly wanna get.

Cheers mate

damn yeah i definitely feel those problems too especially with autopiloting and not cognitive thinking. i am lucky that i live with someone who is always down to play and i'm at a school that has a good scene, so i have a lot of opportunities to practice. unfortunately i'm pretty busy too.

one suggestion for tourney nerves that has helped me is stuff i learned with not getting nervous in halo. going for montage clips was one of the most nerve-racking hobbies especially when you would see the clip unfolding, so i trained my brain to just calm down, get confident and zone in. i know you're a good montager, so try applying whatever you would do in Halo with Melee. but obviously tourney nerves never really go away

 

 

ALSO what a sick tournament. sucks to see HBox winning but it's awesome seeing Mango doing great. It's really gonna be up in the air between Armada, Mango and Hbox this year IMO

So who's watching/attending Pound?
wish i could have attended, several ppl i know did VERY well. what a weird, flukey tournament. anyone watch? 
I watched top 8 on Sunday. I'm glad Hax did well, he really showed a lot of people up. That match were he went against Mango's Marth was nuts. Hbox might over take Armada as the best player in the world with a couple more major victories. I'm really glad S2J made top 8, his Falcon was on point this weekend.
I've only watched hax mango but it was a fucking sick set!' Hax is probably my favorite fox to watch he's so technical and unique in his playstyle. Will be watching more sets over the next few weeks.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIDX6_i9cjbxfwR3nlstrFqR2CIwxcHDI

Some friendly games I played over at a friend's house. Apologies for no sound, if that's your thing - thought the Dazzle captured it, but the audio codec settings were wrong. Comment on the quality, if you so like - I deinterlaced and encoded the footage with VirtualDub + x264. The video looks sped up for some reason - that wasn't me at all.

(On a second note, anyone wanna tell me how to use a Hauppauge without having to look low and high for TotalMedia Extreme?)

 I've been playing for over a year competitively, but didn't own or play it as a kid, him for maybe half that time but has been playing since childhood.

He's Marth/Fox (Seb), and I alternate between Falco/Fox because I keep being told my Falco is better than my Fox, even though I don't prefer him as a character, can't combo the way I'd like to, and screw up his timings more often than I do with Fox.

Things I'm kicking myself over off the top of my head is:

  •  falling for him sitting at the ledge, shieldgrabbing my high, missed FF/L cancel aerial, and then down/back throw gimping.
    •  Easily avoided with a more careful approach, camping and lasering to have him come to me, or not flubbing *late* aerial FF L cancel + shinegrab.
  •  Having predictable tech patterns.
  •  SDing for the dumbest reasons (pushed off edge by Marth getup attack)
  •  DIing in on Marth weak hit combos and combos in general
  • Not playing more patient overall
  • Missing my WDs with Falco due to bad trigger timing.
  • Flubbing shield pressure in game
    •   been testing out jab -> dtilt -> Fsmash, as opposed to doubleshine WD pressure or shinegrab, which I miss frequently in game, but almost never in practice.
    •  I also underutilize movement/spacing out the shieldgrab.
  • Bad/predictable recovery
    • inappropriate shortens
    • always going high or to ledge - few mixups
    • no SDI in + tech on fsmash edgeguards
    •  immediate double jump
    •   attacking from ledge due to discomfort in ledgedashing (which I can do)
    •  imperfect/missed firestalls
  • * Horrid, badly timed edgeguards
    •  missed shine bairs
    •   missed WD back ledgehog
    •   invincibility refresh issues
    •   not using roll + lightshield at edge
    •  not staying on stage and CC D/Fsmash high recovery
  •  Missing easy/free followups on knockdowns and shines
    •  HOW CAN I SUCK AT PILLARING WITH FALCO WTF
    •  Where are my SH uairs + utilt on tech in place as Fox?
  • * Not DIing + buffering spotdodge or roll away from the Marth fthrow "chain"


It makes me mad (and I know ragers never succeed) to know that I notice all this while in game and read a lot of simple patterns, but am horrid at fixing it on the fly. All the tech I flub in game I'm perfectly capable of doing at least 7/10 times if not perfectly in practice (there's no way I should ever be missing shinegrab). Anything else you have to observe, let me know.

i think you're beating yourself up over the wrong things. i mean obviously you're gonna tech flub but theres huge holes in the way you played that would have won you those games

1. poor defense. i saw no uptilts in situations i would have uptilted. no spotdoge shines or anything on this guys predictable approaches. theres also times where you opted to DD really close to marth in situations where it would be better to throw out constant hitboxes or get out  

2. bad approaches

3. not adapting/doing the basics. its insane that you can hit shine-bair really consistently and all these westballz-esque things yet not know to DI  away marths forward throw or tech in place shine his down throw after he does it 5 times in a row.

 

regardless you definitely show you've got potential to be good, especially once you clean up some of the simple things

i think you're beating yourself up over the wrong things. i mean obviously you're gonna tech flub but theres huge holes in the way you played that would have won you those games

1. poor defense. i saw no uptilts in situations i would have uptilted. no spotdoge shines or anything on this guys predictable approaches. theres also times where you opted to DD really close to marth in situations where it would be better to throw out constant hitboxes or get out

Agreed. I forgot spotdodge shine is a damn thing, lmao. Dash dancing is me trying to bait out something laggy instead of interrupting w/e he's doing with a laser and getting him to play defense or preemptively stuff. Needless to say, if I can't control it and space it properly, it definitely doesn't work. I know Sebastian as a primarily defensive and campy player, so any time I apply unsafe pressure I get fucked for it.

Defense with Falco = spotdodge shine, laser camping, turnaround uptilt, back air walling, CC shine. Stupid simple.

I can't DD turnaround uptilt at the moment and that would make my life way easier.

2. bad approaches

Half the time I squat instead of throwing out something = me trying to shine nair or waveshine jab as fox. I'm really stupid when it comes to approaches as falco, I just laser and dair/nair. I also suck at late aerial + FF shine.

3. not adapting/doing the basics. its insane that you can hit shine-bair really consistently and all these westballz-esque things yet not know to DI  away marths forward throw or tech in place shine his down throw after he does it 5 times in a row.

Bro.... throughout our games I held the furthest away I could on BOTH fucking sticks when I got Fthrow "chained" and then tried to buffer a spotdodge or roll. I don't know if I have to adjust that DI to like.... down and away, but I even tried to show him that after the first regrab, it shouldn't be free at all. There were times where I just gave up DIing the throws because I was pissed at myself for not breaking out of them.

The downthrow missed techs are embarrassing, and the constant getup attacks are just bad, impatient spacie characteristics.

 

regardless you definitely show you've got potential to be good, especially once you clean up some of the simple things

I really doubt that but thank you.

 

I'm going to look at footage of good marth vs. falco/fox play, take notes on how they approach those 3 things you're saying I'm weak at (defensive options on approaches, DDing vs. hitbox throwing; good approaches vs. bad approaches, DI and teching) and then cross-reference to my footage.

 

Rewatching Leffen vs. M2K at SSC considering the Marth/Fox MU and Leffen's dismantling of a slightly-off M2K (notoriously grab-hungry). I'm placing emphasis on defensive options and Fox's perspective, but Leffen plays a very strong combo and offensive game (shield stop upairs are fucking nasty and an easy way to be more precise). Other sets in the queue: add more sets if you'd like

Game 1 on YS

Defense

  • I'm noticing Leffen likes to fullhop fast fall to outspace M2K's uptilts/fairs, and fullhop late bair on reaction to grabs (bad at low % due to CC). I saw a fullhop waveland back to space out double fair, then he just waits and overshoots a SH nair approach to purposefully get behind dtilt in place.
  • Lightshielding on platforms between stocks is also a mixup considering jump OOS/fall off platform/shield drop all lead to vastly different positionings.
  • There's a lot of anticipatory crouch cancelling whenever m2k is within dtilt range.
  • Does the Marth killer lightshield frequently, but mixes up with ledgestalling.
  • On knockdown, he run up shields anticipating a getup attack, then grabs. More combo/tech chase game than defensive, oh well
  • He stays out of range of grab with DDing, then run in waveshines after (shielded by m2k) - then resets spacing while maintaining pressure with a few SH lasers. Great play overall.
  • Stuff m2k's DD with a dash attack at high % only for a knockdown
  • Instead of DDing underneath M2K on a platform knockdown, he baits the getup with a spaced fullhop, then double jump up airs after. The mixups included are immediate fullhop up airs and shield stop reaction fullhop up airs for slightly off-kilter timing.
  • Dash dances after an aerial whiff and to outspace grabs.
  • Leffen takes a 50/50 by dash attacking at the ledge when m2k ledgehop fairs, but he regrabs ledge and then upair + nair combos Leffen for his first stock taken. The only truly risky mistake Leffen actually made in this game.
  • Leffen approaches M2K at the ledge by dropping a little below him with invincibility frames (baiting a getup), then SUPER LOW drill shine WDs on his shield. M2K waits for the WD, then grabs. This could've been avoided had Leffen been truly godlike and drill shine grabbed.

Will edit this post later with more observations.

Been seeing some improvement lately. Just had a melee sesh at a friend's house and a Fox that normally bops me had a tough time playing my Falco today. He still won, but it was usually down to last stock, last hit or two stocks. As Falco, I need work on not SDing, my edgeguards, better laser utilization, working around shield, and better neutral. My neutral game is comparable to Westballz in that I'll uptilt/bair/laser at a distance, then go in by doing some stupid technical move or option, which also means it's a shitty neutral (run WD back shine, really lmao). I really wish Falco's fullhop was as good as Fox's.

He uses aerial shine pressure, lots of empty fullhop/fullhop back air, and opts for tech chases. I figured out the fullhops and stuffed them preemptively by DD nairing/uptilting, but by the time I had it figured out he had already moved on to grounded shine approaches. I'm adapting, but I need to do it quicker.

overall I'm happy I've reduced my matchup from "4 stocked and a laugh" to "1 stock and a GGs" against this guy.

Been seeing some improvement lately. Just had a melee sesh at a friend's house and a Fox that normally bops me had a tough time playing my Falco today. He still won, but it was usually down to last stock, last hit or two stocks. As Falco, I need work on not SDing, my edgeguards, better laser utilization, working around shield, and better neutral. My neutral game is comparable to Westballz in that I'll uptilt/bair/laser at a distance, then go in by doing some stupid technical move or option, which also means it's a shitty neutral (run WD back shine, really lmao). I really wish Falco's fullhop was as good as Fox's.

He uses aerial shine pressure, lots of empty fullhop/fullhop back air, and opts for tech chases. I figured out the fullhops and stuffed them preemptively by DD nairing/uptilting, but by the time I had it figured out he had already moved on to grounded shine approaches. I'm adapting, but I need to do it quicker.

overall I'm happy I've reduced my matchup from "4 stocked and a laugh" to "1 stock and a GGs" against this guy.

This is all that really matters at the end of the day haha

So insane. Saw an analysis on reddit that had Plup had 1% less or if u-smash was stale at all Plup wouldn't have died. Unreal.
Is anybody else here as overwhelmingly happy as I am because M2K had such an amazing weekend? I popped off so hard for that 3-0 against Armada. Still glad that Armada saved us from another Hbox win, though. 
Not only that, but I'm also super glad M2K seems to be out of the funk he has been having for awhile now, he didn't give up against Hbox despite being down 3 stocks and he kept it pretty respectable going 2-3 (his fox even did better against Mango!). There was also no long stream of depressing tweets. If he keeps this up hopefully this truly will be the return of the king!
and Stagga don't be so hard on yourself man, from what I remember you live in a region that is filled with extremely good players (Hbox, Plup, Colbol), so you may not do well there but I guarantee if you drove up here to Mississippi or Alabama you would probably do better ha. the number 1 player in AL got wrecked by Eikelmanns bowser lol
Shoutout to Rhis for driving down to my house and playing some Melee with me and boy on Saturday.   Dude is a pretty solid player.

pretty solid? ;)

Turns out Eikelman goes to some locals round me (All That, Bx), gonna see if I can make it down on one of these mondays because the crowd looks pretty damn good from what ive seen online. Heck, Eikelman isn't even #1 in the region.
 

When he lived in FL he was ranked like 14th or something, but whenever he drove up here to the florida panhandle he would always get 1st or 2nd. You're talking about Colorado right Rhis? That's currently where he lives.

I like Ian as a player but he is a pretty weird dude honestly. The dude posted a picture of his ass in this FB group and he sent an unsolicited pic of him in his boxers to a girl in Melee Hell where she posted it for everyone to see lol. also if you guys remember the story from last year how me and a few others saw him lose a  MM to a guy and spit in his face.

Ok so you 4 stocked me with Gannon, whatever bro. Lol, I'll improve and get better. And I think Synox is #1 in the state right now.
hahaha well you shat on most of my secondaries and like I said both of you guys just need to learn a couple things to improve dramatically.

and yea Syrox is #1 in CO for now.

and Stagga don't be so hard on yourself man, from what I remember you live in a region that is filled with extremely good players (Hbox, Plup, Colbol), so you may not do well there but I guarantee if you drove up here to Mississippi or Alabama you would probably do better ha. the number 1 player in AL got wrecked by Eikelmanns bowser lol

I used to be in central Florida but now I live in south Florida, which is arguably free (our #1 ranked player, Porkchops, got destroyed on stream by The Moon). That said, I'm very very far from being near the top regionally, or even in my own city.

I've been playing a lot more recently and seeing strides in my execution, but I still SD in crucial stocks and choke insanely hard, and don't take punish opportunities when I can. I'm playing more falco than fox now - but I keep my fox around for matchups like puff or marth since the combos are freer and neutral is more dash dance reliant.

I'm still getting bodied by players newer to the game than me, which is upsetting.  I deserve to be more cruel to myself. "Shouldn't happen" isn't a thing in this game, but when it comes to losing to newer players because I don't know the solution to unsafe playstyles or bait-heavy backthrow gimp style stuff, it's frustrating and at this point I deserve to be disgusted and self-hateful. If I lose 9000 stocks to backthrow gimp I should know not to fuck around on the ledge and throw out high/unsafe aerials, but I'm dumb enough to do it that 9001th time, jump high and early, and get easily gimped. That warrants 9002 slaps to my fucking idiot brain.

pretty solid? ;)

Turns out Eikelman goes to some locals round me (All That, Bx), gonna see if I can make it down on one of these mondays because the crowd looks pretty damn good from what ive seen online. Heck, Eikelman isn't even #1 in the region.
 

Used to play at Eikelmann's house in Orlando sometimes, since he lived on the same street I did. Played him in an iron man once where he cycled through every character while I played.... whoever, lol, and went 0-26. :\

When he lived in FL he was ranked like 14th or something, but whenever he drove up here to the florida panhandle he would always get 1st or 2nd. You're talking about Colorado right Rhis? That's currently where he lives.

I like Ian as a player but he is a pretty weird dude honestly. The dude posted a picture of his ass in this FB group and he sent an unsolicited pic of him in his boxers to a girl in Melee Hell where she posted it for everyone to see lol. also if you guys remember the story from last year how me and a few others saw him lose a  MM to a guy and spit in his face.

 

+ some weird controversy with an ex, but idk really

guy was into craft beer when i knew him, that's about it

DreamHack Austin was so hype. Mango finally takes grand finals over HBox, even with a loser's bracket disadvantage. M2K also looking good, even after he went full emo after the close set with HBox. Wizzrobe played out of his fucking mind.
I wonder what the next tournament will be with the big 6 all in attendance?

big 6? its gonna be a while man bc of PPMD

 

without PP maybe CEO, but  most likely EVO